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TikTok is a phenomenon that brands can’t ignore, where 1 billion monthly active users are swiping by the second on videos they love — or creating their own. This influence not only created a frenzy around feta (as a certain pasta recipe made the rounds), it is sparking clever job hunters to adopt the platform, posting resumes for their next gig.
In this Signal 2021 session, Vanessa Pappas – TikTok’s chief operating officer – and Nick Tran, TikTok’s head of global marketing, talk about the platform’s growth and its passionate community.
TRANSCRIPT
John Battelle
Next up, are two leaders from the breakout technology and social media company of the past year, certainly here in the United States, TikTok. Vanessa Pappas is the Chief Operating Officer of TikTok overseeing the strategic business direction and growth of TikTok’s global operations, and that has been some kind of growth in the past 12 months, including content marketing, user growth and product. And Nick Tran is the head of Global Marketing for TikTok and his role as TikTok’s first Head of Global Marketing, he’s responsible for all aspects of TikTok’s global marketing efforts. So let’s start with you, Nick. Congratulations on the success of TikTok. And while I’m at this camera, thank you for that. There’s nothing like being in a studio and like, everyone’s wildly saying, talk to this camera, Battelle. Alright, here I am. This is not like being in front of a stage of audience full of people. Nick, how are you? Welcome to Signal.
Nick Tran
Thank you. Thank you for inviting us. This is gonna be fun.
Battelle
Yeah. Well, Nick TikTok’s, had quite a year. It’s been the number one app for months and months and months, here in the United States, even as it was breaking those app store records. The President of the United States last year attempted to force a sale, which I think probably made everyone downloaded it all the more to be honest, probably the best marketing you could have had, well, maybe not marketing, you would have asked for Nick, but we’ll get into that. What was it like to lead a company during that time, Nick, and Vanessa, and and you know, do things feel a little bit more normal now?
Vanessa Pappas
That’s a great question. John, I’m happy to jump in there. You know, I’m glad you brought it up, because I’m sure it is a topic of curiosity for many people out there. You know, in short, absolutely not, you know, we’re seeing a real concern for brands. First and foremost, our commitment is always been to our users. And as an extension of that the brands who operate on our platform. So, it has been, as you said, unprecedented year, and we’ve certainly been seeing that challenge. But what has been really inspiring throughout this, has been an opportunity for us to demonstrate our transparency, in terms of how we operate. So, you know, in this past year, and hopefully many of you already know this, we opened our own transparency and accountability centers, to really engage with experts and lawmakers to see firsthand how we build a safe and secure platform for our community. So we’re really pushing the boundaries around what we think about transparency and leading the way for our industry. And it’s been really gratifying to see other peer companies actually follow suit, in opening up their own transparency and accountability centers. But you know, we’ve been clear from the get go, that, you know, TikTok does not operate in China, we have no ties to the Chinese government. And as far as where we stand, in regard to the new order, you know, we’re committed to working with the U.S. government to address any remaining questions that they have. So, you know, we’re very much thankful for all of our partnerships that we’ve seen in really cementing our place in the advertising industry. And, you know, from my vantage point, it’s been, you know, certainly a fundamental shift in and a renewed confidence that we’ve seen since the beginning of this year, where brands are really committed to TikTok and that has cemented us here in the industry and the landscape for being a true contender, certainly, because of the scale that we’ve been able to accomplish. But through these partnerships that provide us and brands as another option for advertisers today, which is really great.
Battelle
Now, you’re referring to the Biden administration is taking a different approach from its predecessor. They have not singled your company out. However, they have included your company in a category of companies that they’ve called potential national security risks posed by software applications connected to foreign governments, and you mentioned the relationship with China. Is there any more that you might say, to assuage the concerns of those who might be concerned that it’s possible that you could say that, but it’s still possible the Chinese government, which has shown a lot of interest in internet companies recently, particularly those that are based in China, might be able to reach in and grab their data without even you knowing that?
Pappas
No, and you know, I think, you know, certainly, these are the right questions that people should be asking, and these are the reasons why we’ve set up our transparency and accountability centers and we’ve also worked with a number of cybersecurity experts. And we’ve proven time and again, that this is not a risk. We have very strict data access controls, we do our own personal audits, we work with third companies. And again, we provide that level of visibility through our transparency and accountabilities for exactly this reason. So being able to give experts and policymakers insight in terms of how we are safely securing our platform. And, you know, I think the team has done a phenomenal job in keeping our platform secure and safe. And we are more than 100%, you know, assuring our communities out there of our commitment in this space, and you’ll see us continue to push in and invest more. And that’s why we’re having these ongoing conversations, because we think that they’re the right conversations that this industry at large should be having when we think about how you’re securing your communities on these global platforms.
Battelle
Well, thank you for answering that. Appreciate it. Let’s turn to a bit of more fun topic. You know, if there’s one thing that I think of when I think about TikTok, it’s just fun. And, you know, maybe we needed that, given that the past five or so years of social media seem to be sort of increasingly toxic. Nick, what is it about the platform that made it such a cultural phenomenon here in the United States, in particular, over the past year?
Tran
Yeah, at a high level, it really starts with the product. I mean, if you think about it, it’s not really about who you’re connected to. And it’s not looking at your social graph to recommend content. It’s really about the content graph and what we know you’ll probably like. I think the other thing that’s really interesting is it’s a fully sound on experience, you don’t see people passively watching it or glancing at it, they’re actually leaning in and watching TikTok. Which actually leads to another insight that we found earlier on which I thought to be pretty powerful insight. If you think about the verb that people use, when they talk about their engagement withTikTok, it’s always the verb watch, as opposed to the verb check. So it’s really not about dipping in checking something leaving, it’s about watching and being fully engaged. So that’s how I feel at a high level of the product is really empowering that but at the same time, it really starts with the community. I think without the community, we wouldn’t really have much of a product overall. And we continue to provide features to them, like Duet and Stitch that allow them to be their most creative selves, and really enrich the lives of everyone around them, whether they know them or not. So that’s a little bit of what makes us so fun.
Battelle
So, one of the things that I’ve noticed is that trends seem to break out on TikTok. Now, you know, consumer, it’s almost as if it’s a way to understand what people are thinking about what they’re sharing. That feel that feels a lot to me, like early Twitter or early Facebook, it’s like you could see what was happening, by the way, people were, you know, connecting and sharing on those services. This feels a little bit different in that it’s pure video. And as you say, it’s the sound is on. What are you seeing now, in terms of consumer insights on the platform? What are people interested in?
Pappas
I could, I could start just in answering that. You know, I think what really sets the TikTok apart, and Nick spoke to this a little bit is that we’re really an entertainment platform that is powered by the community. So when we think about how brands participate in this environment, you know, you’re participating in a very highly engaged community. And so, you know, the fact that TikTok isn’t just a sit back passive experience, you know, people are really engaged and interacting and sharing their passions, whether it’s about a particular trend, as you mentioned, or particular brands that are embracing their products. So, you know, we see this real amplification effect take hold, when a community grabs hold on a particular idea or product, and being able to demonstrate that product and then share that and then suddenly, that becomes the next trend on TikTok. So, you know, I’d say TikTok has proven itself to be a shelf clearer. So you know, someone’s trying the the feta pasta trends, which I’m sure you’re all aware of, it influenced the whole community that wanted that particular product, and then they’re showcasing their own experience of making it on TikTok. And you see the circular effect of this trend just taking hold within a community. The amazing thing about that is then feta cheese as a product was sold out, you know, across the nation, and in grocery stores. There was a 200x in sales. So you know, and the hashtag itself had over a billion views. And, you know, even today, and I’m sure you guys have seen the hashtag tick tock made me by it where our community and our creators are discovering new products, and that hashtag itself has over 3.5 billion or I think even now 3.8 billion views and counting. So for brands that really do lean in and participate with our community, the potential reach and engagement is unparalleled than any other platform out there. Yes. Do you want to add in?
Tran
Yeah, just to add, Vanessa mentioned big feta cheese pasta from the TikTok perspective. Once we saw that taken off, we decided to work with a local restaurant and actually allow people to go in and order that and have it delivered to them. So we worked with Jon & Vinny’s, in LA, to make that come to life. I think when you look at some other trends, when was the last time Ocean Spray cranberry juice sold out at Target and Walmart, like it’s something that you wouldn’t expect, but because of the viral nature of our platform, it happens. And I think it’s because people build on top of other people on TikTok, which is what you don’t see in mass on other platforms. So for example, you see this trend start with Nathan Apodaca, otherwise known as Dogg Face, and then celebrities, and all these other people jump into that trend. And soon enough, everyone’s heard of it. It’s on Jimmy Kimmel, it’s on Jimmy Fallon, and then it’s sold out everywhere. I think that power that we have is something that we see not only in that category, which was food, in food and beverage, but across other things. I think my favorite trend right now is clean talk. I don’t know if you’ve seen this, but people love showing. Yeah, it’s literally hacks of showing how you might want to clean your house. If you didn’t highlight certain products, it highlights different ways to do it. And sure enough, it’s become this cult like phenomenon on the platform. Most recently, we launched TikTok Resumes, which is another sort of subsection of TikTok on jobtock, where we found that during the pandemic, a lot of people were uploading videos of themselves to try to highlight differentiations to their future employers. And out of that insight, we were able to create a platform where 42 brands are able to post jobs that they’re willing to take a TikTok video as a resume submission. And in turn, we’ve created thousands of people who are now able to hopefully, identify and, and find new new jobs that they can actually apply using a 60-second video. So these are a few of the trends that we see, based on the insights. And again, it all starts with the community.
Battelle
So watch out LinkedIn, I guess. I’m curious about the role of algorithms in AI. This is one of the big topics of Signal this year is understanding AI. Algorithms and their impact on the public discourse are now part of a national dialogue in the United States. And not in a good way, to be honest. But your algorithm seems to be, I guess you could say, happy. You know, how did you make it work? How does it work? Is this part of your transparency efforts? Tell us a little bit about that algorithm, and the AI behind it. That helps make the experience that is watching TikTok?
Pappas
Yeah, so I think there’s a couple of things that go into that. So you mentioned like this like TikTok is a happy experience. It’s a joyful experience, how do we inspire creativity and bring joy. And we see that that comes about the sentiment that we’re seeing on TikTok and the creative expression that we see on TikTok is primarily entertainment because of the format itself. Right? So these are short clips, you know, oftentimes set to music. So you really do, because of the format and the medium, it does bias towards this idea of like, just showcasing great entertaining, and sometimes also educational and fun content that skews more into the life hacks that Nick was talking about before. But you know, what’s really unique about TikTok is that it’s not a social network. It’s an entertainment platform, first and foremost. So when you open the app, you know, you’re immediately experiencing a diverse array of entertaining content. So whether that’s the comedy skits that everyone knows and loves, to adorable pets, to the life hacks to cooking and food trends, like the feta pasta and much, much more, because TikTok is not based on a social or follower graph, you know, the users are much more likely to discover content, and or brands that meet their interests, as opposed to having to seek them out. So fueling that discovery is what you’re saying, which is, it’s what we call our For You feed. And this is our recommendation system that really does change and present you with the most entertaining and diverse content that you would otherwise wouldn’t have potentially seen if you were just relying on that social graph. And I think that’s what’s really unique about TikTok is that among you know, the hundreds of millions of users that we have around the world, there’s no two feeds that are the same. And we certainly do think a lot about you know, how do we ensure that diversity of content and how do we continue to really not just present people with what they know and love but also also things that they may not have otherwise seen. So we’re always looking at presenting diverse content within the fields as well.
Battelle
You know, the, you know, as something of a student, an amateur student of social platforms, and platforms generally, you could understand, say, Google Search, and say, Well, Google Search works so well, it’s magical, especially in the early days, because it’s all about what pages are linked to what pages there was some sort of fundamental fundamental understanding of why you were getting the results you were getting. And then with Facebook, as you point out, well, I must be getting a lot of stuff that my friends are looking at or that they’re recommending. And so you understood that there was this base level social graph informing the algorithm. But I don’t actually understand and when I listen and watch my friends watch, or my children watch TikTok, they don’t understand exactly why they’re getting what they’re getting, it just seems like it works. Do you have a handy sort of, you know, description of how the FYP, you know, for you, For You page works? Is there some name for this magic? Or should we just trust you and just keep smiling?
Pappas
You know, I think so always you should just keep smiling. But the the For You feed really is looking to personalize to your watch experience. So in its most basic form, when content is served up and presented, if you’re engaging with that will look to show more of that content, but also, again, balancing that out with new content that’s always coming up and on the platform. So people are posting, you know, thousands, and millions of videos on a daily basis. And so there’s a lot of content diversity that we have at our disposal to share and broadcast around the world. And so really, it does look at both the signals of what are your personal interests? What are the things that you’re engaging on that we can certainly understand to showcase more of, and then also, because there’s just the breadth and depth of this amazing content that shows up on TikTok, you’re also going to get surprised. And you’re going to find those just serendipitous moments where you’re finding content and life hacks, like, you know, Nick has, and now he’s house is extremely clean because of it. Because of just the diversity that we’re able to showcase,
Battelle
You know, my question, you know, I realize, as I think about, it doesn’t just relate to my own curiosity about why am I seeing what I’m seeing, but it relates directly to an area I want to explore now, which is how do brands and marketers engage with TikTok? People who are sophisticated at marketing on Google or on Facebook or on YouTube, they understand the targeting they understand the data, they know that there’s these incredibly rich profiles of the users the first party data, as it’s called in the industry, that they can access on the platform in order to properly target their advertising. Is that true also on TikTok? How, how do brand marketers know they’re getting the audience they want, in the context they want?
Tran
Yeah, I will say everything that you just described sounds like a lot of work. And the best way to succeed on TikTok is to have fun. Like if you actually think about whether necessarily about being an entertainment platform, brands that do well, are being generous with their content, and they’re just looking to entertain people. And then if you kind of read between the lines of how she described the algorithm, the content will find the right audience, and it’ll surface to surface it to them. So in the same way that like, because I probably wasn’t the cleanest person, Clean Talk, showed up on my feed, and now I’m much cleaner, it’s really open to getting you exposure to the right audiences at the right time, based on their viewing behavior. So you don’t have to think too hard about it. I’d say like when we saw Old Spice reach out to TikTok creators to recreate the “Smells Like a Man” campaign that worked well, because what what guy doesn’t want to pretend to be Isaiah Mustafa and actually go out and say, like, look at him. Now. Look at me. Now back to him. Like that whole thing. Like, it’s just a fun thing for people to want to recreate. And I think we saw a lot of creates out of that. So if you’re not having fun, I think you’re doing it wrong. And ultimately, you shouldn’t worry about how many times you post or is this good enough to post. Just get it out there because it won’t be seen unless it’s starting to do well. And if it does, well, it’ll start to surface to a lot of other people. And that’s sort of the beauty of TikTok. It’s not about being perfect. It’s about moving at the speed of culture, finding things that are relevant, entertaining, and making sure you just take more swings and surface as much as you can about your brand to the audience that will eventually find it.
Battelle
Well, let me let me just ask the dumb sorry, go ahead, Vanessa.
Pappas
I would just yeah, so I would just in there, you know, you know, certainly as a mobile platform with the hundreds of millions of users and all the diversity of users that we have on the platform. The capabilities are there for marketers, right? But I think to Nick’s point, what what is special and unique about TikTok is the ways to go beyond just traditional advertising or marketing, we’re really seeing that advertisers have an opportunity to flip traditional marketing on its head and really placed their brand at the forefront of innovative, innovative storytelling in creating content that really connects with our generations today. So instead of just creating ads, that people can skip over, creating something that they can actually get immersed in. So so much of that ingenuity and creativity and fun that the TikTok community has, you know, think about how your brand can show up in those moments for those communities. And so if you think about it, traditional advertising is telling people how they should react to their brands, and a TikTok is showing people how they can react to help people react to the brand. So, you know, we really tell brands that whether you’re on TikTok or not, people are on TikTok talking about your your brand. And so how can you really leverage that and be a part of the community? I think there’s a ton of opportunity there, in that regard.
Battelle
So I’m just gonna ask the dumb question, though, because I want to make sure having never purchased any ads on tick tock, you can buy ads on TikTok, you don’t just have to make content that works on tick tock, obviously, that’s a great tactic. But tell me a little bit more about the actual, you know, if I’m a media buyer, for the first time, I’m like, I got to get on this TikTok thing, everyone’s talking about it. You’ll counsel them to make high quality content that works on the platform, certainly. But then what more can they do to ensure that it has a chance of being seen and seen by the right people?
Tran
Yeah, if you look at the first video, when you open up the app, that’s the the top view, that’s probably in my mind, one of the best places to reach a large audience. If you think about the scale of TikTok, you’re reaching, you know, millions of millions of people with that specific one. And the great thing about TikTok is because you’re not just looking at content of people you follow. When you see a brand video come through your feed, it’s not something that you immediately reject. Like, if I see a sponsored ad on another platform, I immediately know it’s not something that I’m currently following. So I have the tendency to just fly right past it. Whereas with TikTok, it’s all about discovery. So because you’re not expecting to see something, content you follow, when a brand shows up, it just feels native to the overall platform. And if you create something, and you actually buy the media spot to have it in feed, it’s another great way to to surface your, your content to a wider audience.
Battelle
Alright, final question for either or both of you. One of the trends we’ve noticed as we were looking back on the past 12 months, and looking forward to the next 12 is how important commerce integration has become, for almost every technology platform. You know, it used to be 5 to 10 years ago, when you thought commerce online, you thought Amazon, and that was about it. And now commerce is is sweeping through the United States after having already been integrated deeply into almost every app in Asia. TikTok Summit, a couple of announcements around this space. I’m curious what you think the future of commerce is, and how tic tock might be involved?
Pappas
It’s a great question, John, I think, you know, in general, excuse me, in general, I think, you know, we certainly saw an acceleration in this space with COVID and the pandemic, where people were, you know, moving to more of shopping online and commerce. So there’s no doubt that e-commerce is an exciting area. And we’re always exploring ways for our users to discover, engage and shop the brands that they love. And so while we don’t have anything new to share in terms of what TikTok’s looking at, and you know how we’re thinking about this space, particularly, you know, we are always looking at ways that TikTok and brands can really have an outlet to authentically connect with audiences. And we’re you know, as you mentioned, we’ve experimented somewhat in this area for new commerce opportunities. The the main kind of philosophy that we have here is how do we minimize the distance between connecting a brand with their consumer and so whatever format or fashion that they may take in you know, in e-commerce or more more generally, we do see, or I guess, the advertising space more generally, and ways that brands can show up show up on TikTok, I think that there’s so many different advantages that we can look at. TikTok is having. So we are video first platform, we have strength in our discovery, which, you know, Nick is certainly talked a lot about today. And we have a global community. And so we’re really looking at ways that we can reinvent the product discovery for the next generation of our customers and whatever format that ends up taking, but certainly an area of exploration, and there’s been a lot of excitement in the e-commerce space.
Tran
Yeah, one thing that I think is a fun analogy is if you actually think about it, you mentioned Amazon earlier, that to me is sort of like mimicking the Costco shopping experience where you know what you need to get, you have your list and you try to go in and out as quickly as possible. We haven’t had a digital solution that’s really more like the mall where you go to be entertained, you go to hang out. And while you’re there, you have these spontaneous purchases, because you see something that you didn’t think about before. I think if you just kind of think about the feed, TikTok actually will be able to provide that at some point where it feels more like a mall, you’re there to be entertained, you’re watching things and all of a sudden you see something that you didn’t think about buying, but now you have the intention to do so. So I think those are some of the fun aspects that might separate us in the future.
Battelle
Indeed. Well, Nick, Vanessa, thank you so much for joining us at Signal. I’m sure you’re gonna have a very busy year ahead. And I certainly hope we can have you guys back for a future Signal conference. So thank you again very much for being part of this year’s event. All right.
Pappas
Thank you so much for having us. Thank you.
